The Moon Society Forum

minimal resupply, dont think that will be realistic, but sustaining a base there, yes will be necessary

step one: land. unload all the cargo you brought.

bring as much cargo as possible, as much of whatever y think yuo may need. sytart a hug e pile of stuff right there on the moon, will it float away? i dont think , so , right? can anyone correct me on this? lunar gravity is low but it does setlle back down right?

ok, so bring stuff, set up fuel tanks for the ship's fuel. stand them there, and fll more fuel each time you arrive

make a runway, clear it away, for the ships to land, profer standard type landings, but LOR , well if we have no other choice, then fine do LOR

LOR means lunar orbit renevous

which is what got us successfully the moon, in the 70's with jfk and his idea

"Minimal resupply" is the long-term goal. You don't truly have a colony until it is able to function without constant help from Earth. I would go farther and argue that you don't truly have a colony until you "cut the cord" and leave some of the colonists there without an immediate way back—if your "moon to earth" spacecraft seats ten, and you always keep one on hot standby ready to fly home, you don't really have a true colony if you have fewer than ten people. If you have a hundred and fifty settlers, though, and you couldn't fly more than ten or twenty of them out in an emergency—that's when you're really committed.

At least in the beginning yes, you're going to have to bring pretty much everything. But what you bring is really important. For example, oxygen. There's no atmosphere on the moon, true, but there's plenty of oxygen locked in moon rocks and soil. It wouldn't really be that hard to set up a mini-refinery to recover that oxygen so we can use it for breathing. One less thing we have to bring from Earth. There's also lots of iron, titanium, and silicon (or glass) which could be processed and refined. So we can use native building materials and, again, that's one less thing we have to bring from Earth. Keep thinking along those lines and pretty soon you come up with a lot of stuff that we either can make ourselves or that we can get along without and use something else in its place.

Like I said, oxygen is plentiful in moon rocks. It shouldn't be long until the Moon can become a net exporter of oxygen. On the other hand, it will probably always be a net importer of hydrogen—hydrogen is really scarce on the moon. So, have your supply ships use whatever spare mass fraction they have to carry extra hydrogen. When they land, you take their surplus hydrogen—all except what they need for the trip back—and fill their fuel tanks up with lunar oxygen to get them back to Earth.

(One thing—there won't be "runways" at a moon spaceport; no air! However, some ways into the future there may be what we call a "mass driver"—look it up!)

"Minimal resupply" is the long-term goal. You don't truly have a colony until it is able to function without constant help from Earth. I would go farther and argue that you don't truly have a colony until you "cut the cord" and leave some of the colonists there without an immediate way back



----------how is that possible, given the current situation ? its not. you have to start somewhere. start small and basic, first.




—if your "moon to earth" spacecraft seats ten, and you always keep one on hot standby ready to fly home, you don't really have a true colony if you have fewer than ten people. If you have a hundred and fifty settlers, though, and you couldn't fly more than ten or twenty of them out in an emergency—that's when you're really committed.



-------i was thinking it seats two to three. ten people is a big deal. one pilot and two other guys.




At least in the beginning yes, you're going to have to bring pretty much everything. But what you bring is really important. For example, oxygen. There's no atmosphere on the moon, true, but there's plenty of oxygen locked in moon rocks and soil. It wouldn't really be that hard to set up a mini-refinery to recover that oxygen so we can use it for breathing.



----ok, so machines. i like it. bring machines, and run them with what? solar ? that doesnt draw much current. not much power. if you bring gasoline, you can power the machines. ok, i guess even the machines may need air or oxygen to run, do they? huh, um i think maybe not, no i think you can trun them without any air.
build like a building. and stick everything inside. with a door. like a hinge and it should seal from the inside.
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One less thing we have to bring from Earth. There's also lots of iron, titanium, and silicon (or glass) which could be processed and refined. So we can use native building materials and, again, that's one less thing we have to bring from Earth. Keep thinking along those lines and pretty soon you come up with a lot of stuff that we either can make ourselves or that we can get along without and use something else in its place.

Like I said, oxygen is plentiful in moon rocks. It shouldn't be long until the Moon can become a net exporter of oxygen. On the other hand, it will probably always be a net importer of hydrogen—hydrogen is really scarce on the moon. So, have your supply ships use whatever spare mass fraction they have to carry extra hydrogen. When they land, you take their surplus hydrogen—all except what they need for the trip back—and fill their fuel tanks up with lunar oxygen to get them back to Earth.

(One thing—there won't be "runways" at a moon spaceport; no air! However, some ways into the future there may be what we call a "mass driver"—look it up!)
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this is all theoretical, and not very nice for commercial or normal people, your money sources will be minimal if you don't do tourism. basically shooting yuorself in the foot. you can have runways if you want. if you want to do LOR then fine , do that.

LOR means lunar orbit rendevous, for those that dont know, i suppose most know that


thats how we landed last time.

little ship leaves big ship and lands, guys get out and walk, then get back in and it blasts off and meets with the main ship, that has been circing orbiting the planet.

whatever, I'm not going under these circumstances. forget it

im not gonna drill moon rocks up there. you can drill them.

thanks for posting. the next generation , students now, and adults later might be interested. some countries now are interested, they might have various approaches, but the usa seems not that interested,

if there were another "space race"

, then that would ignite competition for going.

well theres gotta be an incentive, dont you think? the cold war there was an incentive, "beat the russians or else!" it was a cold war for global government superiority, which country, the usa or ussr will become the world's most powerful country or government? so that was a competetive race.

if we create such a race, like they had with going into space, recently, the x prize or whatever , and they did that they had a ship called spaceship one that went into a space.

isn't there also a google lunar x prize?


* or many incentives, if there's many incentives that's fine too.
such as:

-scientists living there, and doing experiments
-school students living there and doing research temporarily, then they fly back to earth !
-gathering moon rocks for sale on earth. I know that may be simplistic or controvercial, but just that one idea can fund all kinds of things like new buildings there. you can have a coillege there.

-a space port for launching further into space
- different cultures can have rooms or dorms. different languages, a way for people to unite on a world scale , away from earth? break down our cultural barriers and see each other as world citizens. its a mind altering thing.
- space tourism, luxury hotel rooms there, and that can fund a new building or hangar.
- repair facilities with tools for fixing spacecraft


oh, by the way I'm going to california city, which is basically like the moon anyway, so i might as well go to the moon. ca city is a settlement in the desert , north of edwards air force base in california. theres nothing out there, so , um well you have to either bring or build basically everything.

i mean how pitiful is this? if we cant even go to the moon reliably and build anything we want there, then how can we think of sending men to farther planets ever? orbiters and probes are not enough. you have to send guys there. it really all comes down to if you want to do this or not. if you really really want to, or even have to , then you will by all means to it, to save your life. Or to win an economic race or whatever. right now nobody seems to care,. at all. sad.


I'm afraid that this kind of project, a moon colony project,

(and by the way ---------I am very glad we are actually talking about this,--------- most people are not)

is almost impossible to do, unless we have committed people to do it.

oh, what i was gonna say is that, this kind of project must be like forced, like given money and ships and done by force, by executive order,. and by forceful backing, cause its such a big step, such a tremendously big mission, so big so impossible, that it must be forcefully done. like amilitary mission.


if the military would be uinvolved, then,,, i think then they can do it

we need like a military nasa. like that movie armageddon.




cause i think theres a big, big difference between just sending lille landers, and making actual colonies there. again, i applaud your vision for mentioning the idea of colonies with people there. really that is all it takes, once we have folks there they will figure ways to survive and set up shop

http://www.googlelunarxprize.org


i think also its good to get guys that have no full time jobs, or even criminals, from jail to go there, they will be way more productive than official tyoes that will just want to do basics and then return home. plus offer those guys lotsof money if they complete missions like building a building.

It will be really dangerous, i think.

what is MY incentive for going there?
not much , really its boring, dangerous, scary, cold. and nothing in it for me,

...unless:


-they pay me

-and also cause I like traditional style space ships. like the shuttle made in the usa.


this is how we have to think. what will the ordinary guy take, what will it take to get the ordinary guy to be involved?


the shuttle is really great, compared to the little lunar/martian "bugs" we have now.

i mean the shuttle was a big spaceship @!

big cargo doors. cockpit, looks like a plane, wings, vertical and hoirizontal stabilizers, its even got arms that come out and can grab objects

so in a way, the shuttle is/was our greatest spaceship so far


and the saturn 5 rocket


basically a shuttle with wheels is what i am talking about, big rubber wheels. and you can land like that.

then you clear a runway. and the rubber wheels can be smaller then.

Or you can just sit her down if you want , like just like a helicopter does. with skids. but then you cant move the shuttle around, you cant push it into a parking spot, that can come later.

so the point is that we have to really need to have space travel for some reason. the mining thing is interesting.
is there anything special there that we don't have on earth?
any special material, like iridium, or titanium, etc, that industries will pay for?



wonder what people think of my moon 3d animation renders. it only took 5 minutes to make so to say it took a long time is not really truthful.
3d studio max 3.0

thanks, michael j ortiz-dahinten
los angeles, california

wonder what people will think of this render:

ok the base took longer to make.
about 3 hours so far. wonder if people will like it or chase me off.
um, its just a 3d animation concept. theres a geodesic dome there, housing, and a nice foundation of structure core. and antennas for cable tv and satellite tranmissions. the idea is the more homely and comfortable it is, the better people will like it and less likely to abandon it. i think it should be really nice and have great stuff there. you can grow plants in the greenhouse maybe. thanks, best of luck, mike, california.

ok so heres the file, as an image

At least in the beginning, we're going to have to look for people who will do it because they love it, because they want to be pioneers. The same kind of people who came to the USA to carve out a living from the wilderness instead of taking it easy and living it up in the cities of Europe.

No, there may not be many of them. But we don't need many. Just a few to blaze the trail, and then others can follow.



We don't want ordinary guys. We want EXTRAordinary guys!



The Shuttle has done a good job of living up to its design potential. But it was designed as a Low Earth Orbit spacecraft, and that's all that it's good for. It could never go to the moon—not without so many changes and modifications that it would have to turn into a different craft altogether.

The Apollo spacecraft may have looked like bugs compared to the Shuttle, but they did the job they were designed to do, and they did it magnificently.



But remember, a shuttle can't land on the moon. Those wings need air, remember? The moon will require a jet landing, like Apollo. And that brings up other considerations as well. The exhaust blast will kick up dust a long way—when Apollo 12 landed 600 feet away from the Surveyor 3 probe, it kicked up enough dust to coat it, even that far away. Buildings near a landing pad on the moon will be blasted repeatedly with dust, at least until we can build one or more pads with a hard surface to deflect the blast.